Roiphe defends risqué
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| Katie Roiphe |
If only we were all sitting over coffee, after we'd read Katie Roiphe's OpEd piece, "In Favor of Dirty Jokes and Risqué Remarks" in the New York Times (Sunday November 13. 2011.)
I'd love to hear your stories, share mine.
Let's let Roiphe go first:
"In our effort to create an unhostile work environment, have we simply created an environment that is hostile in a different way? Is it preferable or more productive, is it fostering a more creative or vivid office culture, for everyone to vanish into Facebook and otherwise dabble online? Maybe it's better to live or work with colorful or inappropriate comments, with irreverence, wildness, incorrectness, ease."
She says, "The majority of women in the workplace are not tender creatures and are largely adept at dealing with all varieties of uncomfortable or hostile situations."
I've never been sexually harassed in the workplace; I know women who have experienced the range, from a lone comment to stalking. And by sexual harassment, I mean unwanted attention, usually verbal and sometimes physical.
We can't take sexuality out of the workplace. We can create and enforce policies that say certain behaviours will not be tolerated. Harassment depends on the harasser thinking no one will stop him or her.
We need to deal with the bullies and idiots who think they can intimidate someone into unwanted activity. (And even if wanted, work is not the place to make your desire known.) I've worked in organizations where a person (usually a man, once, a woman) has lost his or her job for such behaviour.
But recently I heard a man compliment a colleague on her sweater, saying, "That blue matches your eyes perfectly", then follow, sincerely and immediately with, "Oh, I hope that was not inappropriate."
I recall the hundreds of risqué jokes I've been told at work. Humour reveals what confounds and disturbs, what we love, what we hate. There are jokes so funny they crack me up two decades later and others so blatantly full of hate and meanness that I had to say, in the moment, "That's not funny to me."
Riophe assumes that, in 2011, women at work need no support in this area. I disagree. At the same time, let's be clear about what harassment is, define the line we don't want crossed and not get bent out of shape about jokes or comments that acknowledge we know about sex– and think about it fairly often, even during work hours.
RIP, Larry. Larry was an HR Vice President with whom I worked 30 years ago. His advice was, "Think first, 'Would I tell this joke to my mother'?" Apparently Larry's Mom was quite open-minded, because he told me some of the funnest racy jokes I've ever heard.
What's your story, your perspective, your take on Roiphe's thesis?
Comments
I want to do my job and not have men's sexual thoughts interfere with that task. Men need to grow up and put sex aside in a business environment.
Anonymous: Yecch. I am not in support, in any way of that kind of display. Men's sexual thoughts should not interfere with work- nor should women's. At work, we should put sexual activity aside, but we cannot put sexuality aside (the noticing, the thinking, the current we might feel.)
Pseu: No one tried the shoulder massage but one man put his hands on my waist and I said "Don't touch me." I would say he was an unwitting sexist- just thought it was no big deal. He looked socked and apologized immediately.
As for staring at boobs my favourite was a friend who said to her boss: "Stop it, Fred. They. don't. talk."
I'm guilty of telling a few jokes my mother would call "shady"- not really dirty but a little racy- at lunch or in private, with a colleague I knew would enjoy that.
Sexism, the idea that women can't hold certain positions or levels, has been a far bigger presence in my professional life than harassment, sexual or otherwise.
I agree with Frugal Scholar and Pseu that Roiphe is off mark.
All that said, I am very grateful that we now living in a time where sexual harassment is not acceptable workplace practice and there are consequences for it.
Luckily that was my one and only encounter, and that was years ago. I think like most things, you grow and adept to survive in your enviroment, you wake up one day with the word "Don't" written across your forehead - Corporate Darwinism at its finest.
Not sure what constitutes "covert" sexual harassment- is that remarks made where there is no one to witness? I think of my colleague Sarah, who received suggestive phone calls from a man in her office- is it that sort of thing?
Susan Tiner: For me she is not so "off mark", as just young, hasn't seen much. We have!
I find most Gen X and Millenials very aware about what crosses the line, and eager to openly discuss what constitutes discrimination and bullying. They are the generations who will speak up when they encounter the crude, casual behaviours some commenters described.
In my last tech company there was a flagrant bully who would call other execs and use the most abusive and obscene language possible. (He was of course senior to them.) One of the execs told me how much this hurt him but maintained he could not do anything about it. (There was a hot line, policy, etc.) I found this man, in his late 40's, suprisingly caught in a powerless mind set, as badly as any woman I've known.
Pseu: Yes, I found the leap to Facebook illogical but on reflection, think she is saying people are so stifled at work they let out the behaviour somewhere, and that's Facebook.
I am with her though, re "let's not lose" the kind of irreverence that I saw at the last tech company I worked for, where the senior team got up at an all-hands meeting near Christmas to sing a rousing acapella version of "Walking Round in Women's Underwear", to the delight of the employees. I listened closely to the buzz, no one voiced anything other than amusement, but it was not very "PC".
laurieann: I've known women who were very proper, yet were harassed- you just can't tell who will be the target. I am glad you were not.
Vida Blu: I used to relish the harassers getting their comeuppance but unfortunately several I knew about just went to another city and I'm not sure changed their ways. Unfortunately they are Darwinian survivors too.
Because of such differences in individual experience and temperament, I would agree with those who say Roiphe's conclusions lack empathy. One tough-skinned woman may enjoy slugging it out with the boys while another colleague feels humiliated, even fearful, when exposed to harassing banter.
Still, something graceful is lost from everyday life when noticing how a color matches a coworker's eyes could ever be considered an affront, don't you think? Consideration and balance go a long way.
C.
Among my large-breasted friends, every single one of them has stories of remarks and worse.
When they asked why, they were told "It is traumatizing for some people, because of past incidents."
"Then", he said in the meeting, "are we getting rid of the dress code? Because if we can't compliment, we can't say anything- -positive OR negative, about appearance." The rest of the room applauded him.
Yes, I know that the environment in certain work subcultures in the English-speaking world, in particular the US, is averse to harmless risqué jokes and compliments (which never happened here in Québec) but the problem is that sexual harassment is a manifestation of power and control, not pleasant and normal flirtation and sexual attraction.
This blog has high standards of demeanor and politeness so I won't let loose with what I think of women such as Ms Roiphe, who is making her name by undermining women's hard struggles for equality and respect.
I love risqué jokes, by the way. That has never been an issue anywhere I've worked, nor have compliments about a pretty dress or eyes.
So I'm always suspicious of the Katie Roiphes--there are harassers among the women too, and they are *much* harder to fight than the men.
Experiences like yours are what gave rise to the policies and laws we now have in Canada- and the US, which is her frame of reference.
As many Times commenters point out, Roiphe is in a position of privilege and relative power that many women in the workplace do not enjoy, so may not realize women (and men) need the muscle of law and policy (and the resulting sanctions) to stop these behaviours.
The US is a more religious country; I have observed less acceptance of the risqué, especially in some organizations and geographic regions than in Ontario and Quebec.
That is why most organizations (including educational institutions) have HR departments who handle these issues, and a variety of means to report them while maintaining confidentiality. Could this happen in the situation you describe? I hope so.
In my last corporate job, we were all asked to watch a web video course on sexual harassment in order to be in compliance. It was mortifying, and felt more like a band-aid than any sort of tool designed to train or empower.
But I'm all in favor of being both complimentary and a little naughty (as you well know), as long as you're aware of your audience and have a general idea of how your comments will be received.
A web course is a lousy vehicle for teaching any material that is values-oriented (harassment, diversity, conflict of interest). The course becomes at best an infomercial.
The custom-designed ones at least provide a concise summary of policy and information about how to report an incident.
Organizations resort to them because they are cheap, but to expect behaviour change from this type of education is ridiculous.
I do agree with you that I've been very lucky. Either that or very dense. With regards to the risque, I enjoy a bit of risque banter; I really do. I was just very careful to keep it out of the work place or out of any earshot of folks I didn't know very well. It's also important to encourage women (and men) to speak up when they are being harassed.
I wish I could have lent some my work experiences to my mother who did put up with a good deal of harassment in the 1940's and 1950's.
I once had a man tell me (at work) that I was taking a job from a man who needed it- and this was in the 1990s!
Not sure what Roiphe's going for here. Maybe if you can't beat 'em, join 'em? It's easier to be on the side of the powerful, right? And potentially more profitable (for writers such as Roiphe). But it's cowardly and doesn't help us.
No one should be made to feel uncomfortable in the work place, either by word or action. But at the same time, we've become so afraid of giving offense I can't help but wonder if that isn't a form of harrassement in itself.
Ali: I think we need to be careful about language or we disempower the actual term. Harassment is "a course of conduct directed toward a person, that causes substantial emotional distress...and serves no legitimate purpose" (US Code, Title 18).
Therefore, not sharing a joke or risqué comment is not a form of harassment, but it may be censorship, a whole other kettle of fish.
In corporate life, most employees accept some form of limits to their perrsonal freedom. Some organizations are more constrained than others, and I like the less-constrained ones best. But I have seen enough harassment to beleive deeply in policy and law and its enforcement.