tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2872918251244874644.post7547182275514525079..comments2024-03-28T03:40:29.423-04:00Comments on Passage des Perles: The plain oneDuchessehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09986153653120526776noreply@blogger.comBlogger35125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2872918251244874644.post-13416434554534249762012-03-15T17:44:07.360-04:002012-03-15T17:44:07.360-04:00Rubi: Having met you, I'd say he was severly m...Rubi: Having met you, I'd say he was severly mistaken! <br /><br />Once, in maybe 6th grade, I brought my school pictures home and my father said, "Well, can't make a rose out of a cabbage." I remember how that hurt, but adolescence seemed to have wrought some changes Dad did not foresee. (Maybe that is behind these kind of remarks, father's fear of their daughters attracting male attention.)Duchessehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09986153653120526776noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2872918251244874644.post-2224393304466193752012-03-15T17:40:34.168-04:002012-03-15T17:40:34.168-04:00This comment has been removed by the author.Lady Catherine and Lady Marlahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05198822274671314663noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2872918251244874644.post-40472951208868006012012-03-15T07:29:42.395-04:002012-03-15T07:29:42.395-04:00It's taken me a while to put together a cohere...It's taken me a while to put together a coherent and concise response; this one really hit home, and I thank you for giving us all something to think about.<br /><br />In my family, the dichotomy was "the pretty one and the smart one." I was the smart one. And my father made it very clear that I'd better use my smarts, as no man was going to find my physique (one that I inherited from his side of the family, I might mention) attractive. He also made my sister, who is dislexic (another paternal biological legacy), feel like an idiot. Both of us have carried these messages around with us for years.<br /><br />A few years ago, in my coaching course, we examined the stories that we'd been told about ourselves, the ones that stick and rankle years and years later, and this was what came back to me. When I shared it with my group, they all looked horrified, and my friend Sid, one of the few men in the course, said, "How could a father do that?"<br /><br />How indeed?Rubiatontahttp://rubiatonta.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2872918251244874644.post-28272484363781061072012-03-13T09:09:33.462-04:002012-03-13T09:09:33.462-04:00Duchesse, thank you for that poem. I love poetry, ...Duchesse, thank you for that poem. I love poetry, and that is a good one to keep and share. :)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2872918251244874644.post-43087545576606786392012-03-11T21:18:09.763-04:002012-03-11T21:18:09.763-04:00Adrienne: I had a friend who was a great beauty an...Adrienne: I had a friend who was a great beauty and said that in her 50s it was such a relief not to have people "see" that aspect of her first. However, she too had to adjust to not being seen through that lens.<br /><br />I know many women, both conventional and unconventional beauties, who are "real". That is a credit to their mothers as well as to them.Duchessehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09986153653120526776noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2872918251244874644.post-87307337108397244602012-03-11T17:55:05.523-04:002012-03-11T17:55:05.523-04:00I have sort of lived vicariously through my two da...I have sort of lived vicariously through my two daughters that look nothing like me and are stunningly beautiful. I so worried that they would never be taken seriously in a job or would not be evaluated for their skills but on their beauty. I fought hard to make them soulful caring women who don't manipulate men to take advantage.Perhaps I am exaggerating but it is difficult to be beautiful and a good person to many people ascribe qualities to you just on your looks. As a mother it has been difficult to keep them on the right track. I never had to worry because I was always the plain girl. It was so eye opening to have been put in this situation.Adriennehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12133408484307666338noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2872918251244874644.post-50006929556805513292012-03-11T09:07:19.805-04:002012-03-11T09:07:19.805-04:00Ms M.: Thirty years ago, a friend sent a poem writ...Ms M.: Thirty years ago, a friend sent a poem written by his friend Peter Meinke, and I have literally carried it with me since; it's called "Untitled" but usually known as "A Poem to My Son Peter". Your comment once again reminded me of the lines,<br /><br />"I thought you knew<br />you were beautiful and fair<br />your bright eyes and hair<br />but now I see that no one knows that<br />about himself, but must be told<br />and retold until it takes hold<br />because I think anything can be killed after awhile, <br />especially beauty..."<br /><br />The entire poem is here:<br />http://www.poems-and-quotes.com/discussion/topic.html?topic_id=74982<br /><br />I am moved to hear that you did claim your beauty and encourage you to write about it, in any form you wish, as it would inspire others.Duchessehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09986153653120526776noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2872918251244874644.post-41908972399293395972012-03-10T20:44:10.933-05:002012-03-10T20:44:10.933-05:00Like deja pseu, I could write a book on this.
I ...Like deja pseu, I could write a book on this. <br /><br />I was the "plain" sister, and I think my parents and siblings liked it that way because it meant that they could count on me to stay home and take care of mundane tasks while they were out socializing and traveling. When I broke out of that role and gave myself permission to own my beauty, it shook things up a bit, not just in my family but among some of my friends as well. <br /><br />And I do feel strongly that a father's influence is extremely important. And not only should a father make his daughter feel beautiful, but more importantly, he should make her feel lovable.<br /><br />Throughout my adolescence and early 20s, my own self-esteem was so skewed, that the first time a guy actually fell for me, I had a hard time believing it was true.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2872918251244874644.post-58865129641085567512012-03-10T19:38:09.104-05:002012-03-10T19:38:09.104-05:00C: Sorry, meant to write, ..."they would have...C: Sorry, meant to write, ..."they would have little hope for Kirn's success"...Duchessehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09986153653120526776noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2872918251244874644.post-32010730236130409382012-03-10T19:36:46.226-05:002012-03-10T19:36:46.226-05:00C.: Sociobiology and evolutionary psychology offer...C.: Sociobiology and evolutionary psychology offer many insights. (I recently read Jonah Lehrer's article "Kin and Kind" in The New Yorker, Mar. 5.) They would have hope for Kirn's success in enjoining men to consider less than optimal mates to continue their genes.<br /><br />They would also nod knowingly when my friend R., who operated a successful introduction (not escort!) service for male executives, found that, despite her tests, interviews and careful attention to the qualities the men said they wanted, they picked on looks, every time.Duchessehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09986153653120526776noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2872918251244874644.post-27802403138003729302012-03-10T10:21:00.786-05:002012-03-10T10:21:00.786-05:00Yes, and I don't think those days are over. T...Yes, and I don't think those days are over. Think of that Sex in the City episode about men obsessed with dating models (I notice that Kirn felt compelled to mention the model he dated.)<br /><br />But maybe we are wrong to consider this so much a cultural or moral issue. After all, scientists tell us that human males are visual creatures, and that the physical features most find beautiful are still those cues which signify that a female is young, healthy and fertile. The attractiveness of the Stone Age male would presumably have been based on very different criteria signaling the ability to provide and protect. Maybe Ninotchka was right: "It's a chemical reaction, that's all."<br /><br />C.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2872918251244874644.post-28918227194562526182012-03-09T17:24:47.166-05:002012-03-09T17:24:47.166-05:00C.: He may indeed be sad and angry. I didn't r...C.: He may indeed be sad and angry. I didn't read "Up in the Air" but the film version revealed what I have seen of that corporate "rationalization" work, mostly accurately. (Maybe he seeks out those themes?) I take his message in Elle as, guys, don't ignore the merely pleasant-looking girl and look only at the pretty one. Maybe I should look deeper.<br /><br />I, too, feel angry and sad too when think back on those years, how many women were treated quite badly, all based on the most superficial qualities. Even now I think of the young man who told me he would not date any girl he had not seen in a swimsuit. (I asked him if he would parade in his suit for me, too.)Duchessehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09986153653120526776noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2872918251244874644.post-69866706761018658332012-03-09T16:58:20.702-05:002012-03-09T16:58:20.702-05:00Duchesse, I like your idea of letting our children...Duchesse, I like your idea of letting our children hear us admiring all sorts of beauty--and luckily there seem to be plenty of unconventional beauties worthy of notice these days. But the high school peer group, as you point out, still holds an awful power.<br /><br />As to Walter Kirn, I guess I do doubt his sincerity. The story of the two girls at the bar feels staged, a sort of "gotcha" intended to bring every pretty girl down a peg. What is his message, after all? Don't bother trying to look attractive--I'll be the judge of whether you're appealing or not, and what it is about you--your big hands or odd nose--that makes you special. Maybe I'm overreacting; after reading Up In the Air, I just couldn't shake the feeling that Kirn was a sad, angry writer trying to make readers feel sad and angry, too.<br /><br />C.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2872918251244874644.post-69334725602841533522012-03-09T13:52:23.438-05:002012-03-09T13:52:23.438-05:00C.: I have not read his novels, except for excerpt...C.: I have not read his novels, except for excerpts, but have read a number of essays and articles and liked "Lost in the Meritocracy". He can sound peevish, yet I would not distrust him for that. (What is not trusted, his sincerity? His experience?) His Elle piece is aimed at a demographic that receives so many messages to the contrary.<br /><br />Though I think it's positive for fathers to give sincere compliments to their daughters, by the teen years the peer group has far more influence. I would like girls to hear their parents complimenting not just them, but a whole range of people, so that they have more diverse images of attractiveness. I would like parents to expunge all Fat Talk from their conversation. This would be a start, from the parent side of the issue.Duchessehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09986153653120526776noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2872918251244874644.post-81532535750303535222012-03-09T13:27:48.251-05:002012-03-09T13:27:48.251-05:00I must agree with those who distrust Kirn's to...I must agree with those who distrust Kirn's tone. I detect an edge, a bit of anger or vindictiveness, and, yes, something patronizing that seems to pervade his novels as well. And in the end, I'm not even sure I believe him.<br /><br />My younger child is one of those who fall outside the (painfully narrow) category of "pretty girl" in her high school, so I read this post with great interest. I will not be showing her the Kirn piece, but I do think it's worth asking: How does one develop that important conviction you speak of, with negative messages coming from so many directions? Years ago, when a friend said she hoped that my husband told my small daughter she was pretty (her own father had believed that compliments led to conceit) it shocked me a little. My father had always made it clear that he considered his daughters beautiful; I'd taken his admiration for granted. It made me realize how crucial a father's influence is to a girl's self image. Mothers can help, too, clearly, as can good friends. But beyond these, what can help a not-conventionally-pretty girl to find her own attractiveness? I know too many middle-aged women for whom that discovery has never happened.<br /><br />C.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2872918251244874644.post-25214143016029880642012-03-09T13:26:00.719-05:002012-03-09T13:26:00.719-05:00Duchesse, yes, I agree re (screen) actors being te...Duchesse, yes, I agree re (screen) actors being telegenic, it wasn't clear that I'd started extrapolating to ordinary people, sorry! (it was clear in my head...) Being photographed well is a skill too.Linnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2872918251244874644.post-5853668934179577192012-03-09T08:48:28.592-05:002012-03-09T08:48:28.592-05:00I haven't seen that movie yet, but think Leigh...I haven't seen that movie yet, but think Leigh's movies all bear repeated watchings. Sheen is in a few and also always worth watching.<br /><br />Not surprisingly I too was the sidekick of an unusually beautiful friend long ago and I too learned that there is beauty and, as Pseu stated, "attractiveness". In my 20s I thought it strange that although my beautiful friend would set me up with dates, I fended off three marriage proposals before I met my spouse, and my friend remained unattached (still). Much food for thought and an education in that people are not stereotypes, and beauty is only a part of the picture.<br /><br /><br />I thought the article was interesting and that sometimes it takes broad strokes (and a few stereotypes) to make a point.Mardelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04850551308931710502noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2872918251244874644.post-67595536951323573142012-03-09T08:26:55.336-05:002012-03-09T08:26:55.336-05:00Margaret: "Beautiful is kind of overrated&quo...Margaret: "Beautiful is kind of overrated" may well be the new slogan.<br /><br />Anonymous @ 11:08: Your men friends sound a bit naive. Flirting is not "a quick wit", unless that wit veers toward playful, personal and a bit frisky. <br /><br />Flirting has a frisson of sexual attraction even if (and especially if) it's not going to happen. <br /><br />Flirting does not mean "yes" or "no" it means "perhaps", even if that is in another lifetime. If the men you speak of do not know the difference between wit or an "extroverted personality" and flirtation, they are inexperienced in social intercourse. If you enjoy flirting, you will get the attention you desire, and maybe more.<br /><br />LPC: Look forward to it!<br /><br />Monkey: Women are more complicated, but his audience (Elle's market is mostly under 30) is young. His characterization of the pretty girl is harsh, but I took him to mean a subset: the girl who has learned to trade on her looks and seeks settings where she is shown to advantage. (Ever seen it? I have.)<br /><br />I've heard too many conversations among men in this publication's target age to not appreciate Kirn's basic point, which is to appreciate a woman who is not model-pretty. The most blatant cases that I've seen of age discrimination based on looks are among men in this age bracket. Older men do it too, but hide it better.<br /><br />Lin: The quality of being telegenic is essential to actors. Some are both beautiful in person and on screen (Garbo, Ava Gardner), others look quite ordinary in person but the camera loves them.Duchessehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09986153653120526776noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2872918251244874644.post-86421616020189798322012-03-09T07:47:05.301-05:002012-03-09T07:47:05.301-05:00Really great post and topic. Would love to commen...Really great post and topic. Would love to comment more but am rushing to catch a plane!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2872918251244874644.post-82659330709746964842012-03-09T00:40:50.337-05:002012-03-09T00:40:50.337-05:00Yeah, I thought the article was kind of obnoxious ...Yeah, I thought the article was kind of obnoxious too. Because if you happen to BE a beautiful woman you are now by default also uninteresting, catty and unhappy? Enough with the beautiful on the outside = ugly inside and vice versa stereotypes. Women are more complicated than that.Monkeyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05866229417383734998noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2872918251244874644.post-16787183814362988122012-03-09T00:09:43.490-05:002012-03-09T00:09:43.490-05:00Sigh. Some day I will gird my loins and write the ...Sigh. Some day I will gird my loins and write the post that's been in my mind for months on "prettiness." I'm glad you take on these meaty subjects.LPChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18209861350905135093noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2872918251244874644.post-25393058369026541082012-03-08T23:08:55.773-05:002012-03-08T23:08:55.773-05:00I read the linked Elle article and was a little sq...I read the linked Elle article and was a little squicked out. It felt patronizing. Like, oh, look ugly girls! I'm a guy who likes you. Aren't you lucky?<br /><br />I am a woman who falls outside the norms for conventional beauty. I have a big nose and a big butt. <br />I know this is going to sound obnoxious, but I have never lacked male attention, and sometimes get too much of it (I'm happily married.) I have an outgoing personality and a relatively quick wit, and many men take this for flirtation. I suppose I AM flirtatious, but harmlessly flirtatious, and it seems there are some men who take all flirtation quite seriously. As in, oh, she just joked with me. That must mean we're going to sleep together.<br /><br />Anon for this one, regular poster!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2872918251244874644.post-77480658939424112052012-03-08T20:12:34.014-05:002012-03-08T20:12:34.014-05:00When I was a teenager, and my friends and I figure...When I was a teenager, and my friends and I figured out we weren't ever going to look like models, we used to say, "If you can't be beautiful- look F-ing cool." We might have appropriated the phrase from somewhere, but I've no idea where. This motto, although I rarely speak it aloud anymore, has served me well, emphasizing as it does, the importance of style, rather than beauty. And wouldn't you know it? The women in the world who catch my eye are rarely gorgeous,but always strikingly stylish. Beautiful is kind of over rated. Interesting how it seems the Brits expect their actresses to be able to act rather than just decorate the screen. Talent is often much sexier than out and out 'sexiness'Margarethttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11693240302469614241noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2872918251244874644.post-85950716280740207762012-03-08T16:29:35.382-05:002012-03-08T16:29:35.382-05:00Yes, and that's another thing, some people are...Yes, and that's another thing, some people are very attractive in person, but don't photograph well, or vice versa. Flattering dress, flattering lighting and a great photographer also help!<br /><br />I suppose Lesley Manville could also be considered "plain" but she is a wonderful actress. Actually I sort of feel real beauty is...hmm, how to put it...almost too dazzling for good acting. At least when certain actors are on screen, I have trouble seeing past their gorgeousness, but that may just be me! Conversely, the animation and competence displayed by good acting, makes everyone "attractive" in some way, I feel.Linnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2872918251244874644.post-51132956015266272112012-03-08T16:21:57.329-05:002012-03-08T16:21:57.329-05:00Anonymous: In the eye of the beholder, once again....Anonymous: In the eye of the beholder, once again. <br /><br />Lin: Maybe not so much in the photo, but on screen it is apparent who is the classic beauty. Thanks, I'll change the name.Duchessehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09986153653120526776noreply@blogger.com