tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2872918251244874644.post6359472389153440609..comments2024-03-28T03:40:29.423-04:00Comments on Passage des Perles: Roiphe defends risquéDuchessehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09986153653120526776noreply@blogger.comBlogger30125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2872918251244874644.post-88973113413214756202011-11-22T08:19:20.626-05:002011-11-22T08:19:20.626-05:00ONEWEIRDWORLD: I think Roiphe is going for a littl...ONEWEIRDWORLD: I think Roiphe is going for a little more tolerance before the "harassment" label is applied, *as far as* jokes and comments. However (and yours and others' comments have brought me to this) we need to be careful as harassers often begin the process by a few racy comments, checking to see if that is tolerated, then escalate. As someone who has not endured the behaviours many of the commenters describe, I may be a little too tolerant. Still, I believe there is a place for, say, a compliment on a new dress without it being sexually-oriented.<br /><br />Ali: I think we need to be careful about language or we disempower the actual term. Harassment is "a course of conduct directed toward a person, that causes substantial emotional distress...and serves no legitimate purpose" (US Code, Title 18). <br /><br />Therefore, not sharing a joke or risqué comment is not a form of harassment, but it may be censorship, a whole other kettle of fish.<br /><br />In corporate life, most employees accept some form of limits to their perrsonal freedom. Some organizations are more constrained than others, and I like the less-constrained ones best. But I have seen enough harassment to beleive deeply in policy and law and its enforcement.Duchessehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09986153653120526776noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2872918251244874644.post-87152465715910702452011-11-22T07:13:20.490-05:002011-11-22T07:13:20.490-05:00I'm 53 and have been in the work place since I...I'm 53 and have been in the work place since I was 15. I can't recall ever being a victim, if that's the right word, of harrassment of any kind. Perhaps I've been lucky or perhaps it did happen, but before it was defined as such. <br /><br />No one should be made to feel uncomfortable in the work place, either by word or action. But at the same time, we've become so afraid of giving offense I can't help but wonder if that isn't a form of harrassement in itself.Alisonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00988920560392606218noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2872918251244874644.post-6642728420145459482011-11-20T13:27:48.904-05:002011-11-20T13:27:48.904-05:00I'm with you. I've certainly enjoyed jokin...I'm with you. I've certainly enjoyed joking around at work, hearing some hilarious stuff, and I've also been harrassed, and also been told some quite hateful jokes. Intention has a lot to do with it.<br /><br />Not sure what Roiphe's going for here. Maybe if you can't beat 'em, join 'em? It's easier to be on the side of the powerful, right? And potentially more profitable (for writers such as Roiphe). But it's cowardly and doesn't help us.Weird in edgewisehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16314111344887318425noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2872918251244874644.post-58528516238932973132011-11-19T17:16:41.082-05:002011-11-19T17:16:41.082-05:00LPC: I've noticed far more restraint among the...LPC: I've noticed far more restraint among the Millenials than I did among men older than I when I entered the workforce 40 years ago. Or it might be that people don't tell me jokes any more, since I'm the age of their mother or even grandmother.Duchessehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09986153653120526776noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2872918251244874644.post-75103199937302032532011-11-19T15:09:58.887-05:002011-11-19T15:09:58.887-05:00Direct and focused harassment is terrible. Too muc...Direct and focused harassment is terrible. Too much ribaldry, hostile or inappropriate, is also difficult. But seems to me there ought to be a meet in the middle approach, a way in which we women can learn to enjoy and master general banter that includes the occasional risque comment. Not easy, but I don't like overly politically correct and over-reactive cries of sexist either. Lesser of two evils, I uppose.LPChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18209861350905135093noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2872918251244874644.post-89249622625304236082011-11-18T13:28:09.162-05:002011-11-18T13:28:09.162-05:00laurieann: There is harassmant and also hazing, wh...laurieann: There is harassmant and also hazing, which is often non-sexual. When I knew women in the skilled trades (plumber, mechanics, etc. they would tell me of their tools being stolen or their work sabotaged. They learned to watch out for one another and to insist the union crack down on these nasty practices. <br /><br />I once had a man tell me (at work) that I was taking a job from a man who needed it- and this was in the 1990s!Duchessehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09986153653120526776noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2872918251244874644.post-79230179752931181582011-11-18T12:18:23.527-05:002011-11-18T12:18:23.527-05:00Duchesse:
I do agree with you that I've been ...Duchesse:<br /><br />I do agree with you that I've been very lucky. Either that or very dense. With regards to the risque, I enjoy a bit of risque banter; I really do. I was just very careful to keep it out of the work place or out of any earshot of folks I didn't know very well. It's also important to encourage women (and men) to speak up when they are being harassed. <br /><br />I wish I could have lent some my work experiences to my mother who did put up with a good deal of harassment in the 1940's and 1950's.laurieannnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2872918251244874644.post-36266659935655927852011-11-18T09:13:58.848-05:002011-11-18T09:13:58.848-05:00Rubi: (Too many typos in comment I deleted.)
A w...Rubi: (Too many typos in comment I deleted.) <br /><br />A web course is a lousy vehicle for teaching any material that is values-oriented (harassment, diversity, conflict of interest). The course becomes at best an infomercial. <br /><br />The custom-designed ones at least provide a concise summary of policy and information about how to report an incident.<br /><br />Organizations resort to them because they are cheap, but to expect behaviour change from this type of education is ridiculous.Duchessehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09986153653120526776noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2872918251244874644.post-87461280591183094132011-11-18T09:11:33.171-05:002011-11-18T09:11:33.171-05:00This comment has been removed by the author.Duchessehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09986153653120526776noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2872918251244874644.post-19770131223290406672011-11-18T05:40:40.126-05:002011-11-18T05:40:40.126-05:00I don't believe I was ever on the receiving en...I don't believe I was ever on the receiving end of sexual harassment, but having spent my career in ESL teaching and publishing, which is more skewed toward female staff, that's probably not surprising.<br /><br />In my last corporate job, we were all asked to watch a web video course on sexual harassment in order to be in compliance. It was mortifying, and felt more like a band-aid than any sort of tool designed to train or empower. <br /><br />But I'm all in favor of being both complimentary and a little naughty (as you well know), as long as you're aware of your audience and have a general idea of how your comments will be received.Rubihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00905190883295023521noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2872918251244874644.post-82389718458563482092011-11-17T21:53:08.355-05:002011-11-17T21:53:08.355-05:00Anon@9:27: Most harassment policies (and law, in t...Anon@9:27: Most harassment policies (and law, in the jurisdictions I'm aware of) hold the immediate manager responsible for harassment (sexual or otherwise) as well as the harasser. In other words, if a manager knows what's happening in her shop (via her own observation, or by a complaint) and does not stop it, she is also charged with the offense. <br /><br />That is why most organizations (including educational institutions) have HR departments who handle these issues, and a variety of means to report them while maintaining confidentiality. Could this happen in the situation you describe? I hope so.Duchessehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09986153653120526776noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2872918251244874644.post-17557050869811817952011-11-17T21:38:39.894-05:002011-11-17T21:38:39.894-05:00lagatta: I've read the piece several times (an...lagatta: I've read the piece several times (and also, the many comments in the Times) and do not sense she is supporting any of the actions you describe going through. What she *is* in favour of is there in her title.<br /><br />Experiences like yours are what gave rise to the policies and laws we now have in Canada- and the US, which is her frame of reference.<br /><br />As many Times commenters point out, Roiphe is in a position of privilege and relative power that many women in the workplace do not enjoy, so may not realize women (and men) need the muscle of law and policy (and the resulting sanctions) to stop these behaviours.<br /><br />The US is a more religious country; I have observed less acceptance of the risqué, especially in some organizations and geographic regions than in Ontario and Quebec.Duchessehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09986153653120526776noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2872918251244874644.post-61664191222297448542011-11-17T21:27:47.853-05:002011-11-17T21:27:47.853-05:00I'm with Frugal--this sort of harassment thriv...I'm with Frugal--this sort of harassment thrives in academe and can take truly insidious forms. Most disturbing to me is a kind of "sexual harassment by proxy." It's a practice of assigning junior women (non-tenure track) to team teach with abusive senior (tenured) faculty--then watching as the newbie struggles to maintain some kind of authority in the classroom. The most enthusiastic practitioner of that form of harassment I ever met was a woman administrator who used the system to punish newcomers (all women) to the department whom she regarded as "too popular" or "pushy." <br /><br />So I'm always suspicious of the Katie Roiphes--there are harassers among the women too, and they are *much* harder to fight than the men.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2872918251244874644.post-3675582098114670472011-11-17T20:23:58.236-05:002011-11-17T20:23:58.236-05:00Well, when I was young and wasp-waisted with a 32d...Well, when I was young and wasp-waisted with a 32dd rack (can't say "skinny" as I was always womanly) I received a never-ending series of guys grabbing my tits (one was on a bicycle - I was walking) bosses wanting to bed me - as a newcomer - and job ending when I turned them down, and creepy drunken advances from co-workers in a supposedly progressive environment. I think Katie is full of it. <br /><br />Yes, I know that the environment in certain work subcultures in the English-speaking world, in particular the US, is averse to harmless risqué jokes and compliments (which never happened here in Québec) but the problem is that sexual harassment is a manifestation of power and control, not pleasant and normal flirtation and sexual attraction. <br /><br />This blog has high standards of demeanor and politeness so I won't let loose with what I think of women such as Ms Roiphe, who is making her name by undermining women's hard struggles for equality and respect. <br /><br />I love risqué jokes, by the way. That has never been an issue anywhere I've worked, nor have compliments about a pretty dress or eyes.lagatta à montréalhttp://www.lemab.canoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2872918251244874644.post-57712827337872082562011-11-17T18:59:30.434-05:002011-11-17T18:59:30.434-05:00Jade Wombat: Thank you from the bottom of my cups....Jade Wombat: Thank you from the bottom of my cups.Duchessehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09986153653120526776noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2872918251244874644.post-77322062166787393682011-11-17T18:52:26.069-05:002011-11-17T18:52:26.069-05:00Lynn Snowden is the author of "Busty Like Me....Lynn Snowden is the author of "Busty Like Me."Jade Wombathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18387605762150331451noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2872918251244874644.post-49859414661725346422011-11-17T15:45:28.448-05:002011-11-17T15:45:28.448-05:00C. : Also wanted to say, a friend of mine is a sr....C. : Also wanted to say, a friend of mine is a sr. manager in a large global corporation. All managers were called to a meeting and told by their HR VP that they should not compliment anyone on their physical appearance, and I am not talking about body, even one's shirt, dress etc. "Strictly off limits" he was told. <br /><br />When they asked why, they were told "It is traumatizing for some people, because of past incidents."<br />"Then", he said in the meeting, "are we getting rid of the dress code? Because if we can't compliment, we can't say anything- -positive OR negative, about appearance." The rest of the room applauded him.Duchessehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09986153653120526776noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2872918251244874644.post-87139734899898737642011-11-17T15:39:55.227-05:002011-11-17T15:39:55.227-05:00C.: In 1987, I read a piece in Spy magazine, "...C.: In 1987, I read a piece in Spy magazine, "Busty Like Me", in which a small-breasted writer wore large, prosthetic breasts and recorded her experience, and yes, she noticed how much more attention (from looks to remarks) she drew. (The article is reprinted in the anthology "Spy: The Funny Years" but I cannot find the name of the writer.)<br /><br />Among my large-breasted friends, every single one of them has stories of remarks and worse.Duchessehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09986153653120526776noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2872918251244874644.post-896968422742263442011-11-17T15:27:20.915-05:002011-11-17T15:27:20.915-05:00The very different stories described in these comm...The very different stories described in these comments make it clear that the individual workplace--and body--one inhabits can have a lot to do with one's experience of sexual harassment. I know that my large-breasted friends seemed to endure too many off-color jokes and advances, while I, flat-chested and slight of stature, was treated more like a damsel than a dame. What IS it about men and breasts? <br /><br />Because of such differences in individual experience and temperament, I would agree with those who say Roiphe's conclusions lack empathy. One tough-skinned woman may enjoy slugging it out with the boys while another colleague feels humiliated, even fearful, when exposed to harassing banter. <br /><br />Still, something graceful is lost from everyday life when noticing how a color matches a coworker's eyes could ever be considered an affront, don't you think? Consideration and balance go a long way.<br /><br />C.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2872918251244874644.post-6416694741186169612011-11-17T14:49:07.864-05:002011-11-17T14:49:07.864-05:00Anonymous: I think it's simplistic,too, yet I ...Anonymous: I think it's simplistic,too, yet I see a useful kernel within that simplistic argument. When the workplace is driven by fear: can't say this, can't say that-it transfers into being open about all kinds of things. I am certainly not advocating for remarks that offend, and I don't think she is either.<br /><br />Not sure what constitutes "covert" sexual harassment- is that remarks made where there is no one to witness? I think of my colleague Sarah, who received suggestive phone calls from a man in her office- is it that sort of thing?<br /><br />Susan Tiner: For me she is not so "off mark", as just young, hasn't seen much. We have!<br /><br />I find most Gen X and Millenials very aware about what crosses the line, and eager to openly discuss what constitutes discrimination and bullying. They are the generations who will speak up when they encounter the crude, casual behaviours some commenters described. <br /><br />In my last tech company there was a flagrant bully who would call other execs and use the most abusive and obscene language possible. (He was of course senior to them.) One of the execs told me how much this hurt him but maintained he could not do anything about it. (There was a hot line, policy, etc.) I found this man, in his late 40's, suprisingly caught in a powerless mind set, as badly as any woman I've known.<br /><br />Pseu: Yes, I found the leap to Facebook illogical but on reflection, think she is saying people are so stifled at work they let out the behaviour somewhere, and that's Facebook. <br /><br />I am with her though, re "let's not lose" the kind of irreverence that I saw at the last tech company I worked for, where the senior team got up at an all-hands meeting near Christmas to sing a rousing acapella version of "Walking Round in Women's Underwear", to the delight of the employees. I listened closely to the buzz, no one voiced anything other than amusement, but it was not very "PC".<br /><br />laurieann: I've known women who were very proper, yet were harassed- you just can't tell who will be the target. I am glad you were not.<br /><br />Vida Blu: I used to relish the harassers getting their comeuppance but unfortunately several I knew about just went to another city and I'm not sure changed their ways. Unfortunately they are Darwinian survivors too.Duchessehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09986153653120526776noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2872918251244874644.post-57111627638402453522011-11-17T13:51:20.445-05:002011-11-17T13:51:20.445-05:00My first experience with sexual harassment took pl...My first experience with sexual harassment took place my first year out of college and into the work force - talk about a fish out of water. One of the senior partners was incessant on dwelling around my desk, which lead to banter that never sat well. Which led to asking if I knew my bra strap was showing, which led to touching it, which led me straight to HR to put an end to the non-sense.<br /><br />Luckily that was my one and only encounter, and that was years ago. I think like most things, you grow and adept to survive in your enviroment, you wake up one day with the word "Don't" written across your forehead - Corporate Darwinism at its finest.Vida Bluhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03111253092741702761noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2872918251244874644.post-77816414830069597662011-11-17T13:30:45.264-05:002011-11-17T13:30:45.264-05:00I must put off a very strong vibe of 'don'...I must put off a very strong vibe of 'don't mess with me' because in all my years in the workplace, and I know that sexual harassment was taking place around me, I was never a victim of it. But I also have a rather formal and 'correct' initial persona so that probably has a great deal to do with it. My own personal guide to defining sexual harassment is that if a person would not want to tell their significant other what they're saying or doing then it's harassment. Also, if others are made uncomfortable by your actions, then it is also harassment; or at least something which needs to stop before the repetition becomes harassment.<br /><br />All that said, I am very grateful that we now living in a time where sexual harassment is not acceptable workplace practice and there are consequences for it.laurieannnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2872918251244874644.post-60631892284182327182011-11-17T13:19:32.617-05:002011-11-17T13:19:32.617-05:00I think she's also setting up a false dichotom...I think she's also setting up a false dichotomy here: we can't be risqué in the workplace ergo people are spending more time on Facebook and being less productive. Is a workplace where people are telling dirty jokes around the water cooler inherently a more productive one?Susan Bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16005855250089328310noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2872918251244874644.post-36016971385334092052011-11-17T13:14:02.899-05:002011-11-17T13:14:02.899-05:00My 30 years in US high-tech software engineering w...My 30 years in US high-tech software engineering world were almost 100% free of harassment, but I think certain departments, like human resources, and certain positions, like executive administrative assistant, weren't always harassment free. I wonder what the office environment is like these days. I've been out of that world almost 10 years.<br /><br />I agree with Frugal Scholar and Pseu that Roiphe is off mark.Susan Tinerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11900811284963063686noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2872918251244874644.post-38945030737503516562011-11-17T12:34:32.823-05:002011-11-17T12:34:32.823-05:00I've experienced overt and covert sexual haras...I've experienced overt and covert sexual harassment in the workplace, and simplistic comments like Roiphe's are infuriating. Find another way to get attention.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com