tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2872918251244874644.post516402145943195151..comments2024-03-28T03:40:29.423-04:00Comments on Passage des Perles: TERFs, trans women, and swimming snailsDuchessehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09986153653120526776noreply@blogger.comBlogger19125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2872918251244874644.post-32304163426525340472014-09-15T16:17:32.502-04:002014-09-15T16:17:32.502-04:00rubi: Well worth the 15 minutes! Thank you. rubi: Well worth the 15 minutes! Thank you. Duchessehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09986153653120526776noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2872918251244874644.post-74357222374510247012014-09-15T15:19:41.781-04:002014-09-15T15:19:41.781-04:00Kindness and respect, love and acceptance, are wha...Kindness and respect, love and acceptance, are what I intend and wish for. Here's a beautiful example from a place I'd never have expected: http://youtu.be/wu6karR-uYMAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2872918251244874644.post-2042030868194640302014-09-14T18:08:04.635-04:002014-09-14T18:08:04.635-04:00Eleanorjane: Yes, fraught issue. Here (as I imagin...Eleanorjane: Yes, fraught issue. Here (as I imagine there) there are precise criterion for officially holding aboriginal status. Which is not to say people with a smaller percentage than that identify with the culture. <br /><br />But gender is far less defined, because it is a social construct as well as genotype. As one of my friends said, "All kinds of humans decide they want to be a woman for all kinds of reasons."<br /><br /><br />Duchessehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09986153653120526776noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2872918251244874644.post-11715781170895930272014-09-14T16:33:20.157-04:002014-09-14T16:33:20.157-04:00It's a mighty tricky one, this one.
It remin...It's a mighty tricky one, this one. <br /><br />It reminds me a bit of issues in New Zealand of some people with either a tiny percentage of Maori heritage or none at all claiming to be Maori. I can see the outrage of people who've experienced lifelong discrimination, but then I can see people needing to be true to themselves too. <br /><br />I can't say I've ever been at a women only event as such, but I don't feel comfy with males in women's changing rooms or toilets (unless they're preschoolers with their mums).<br /><br />I dunno. Too tricky to generalise about for me, I guess.Eleanorjanehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01126430006941758135noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2872918251244874644.post-66657696507919936422014-09-13T00:17:13.253-04:002014-09-13T00:17:13.253-04:00Mardel: Perhaps, if they got to know more of the p...Mardel: Perhaps, if they got to know more of the persons they wish to exclude, they would open up, Trans women have (according to the article) invited them to do so on some occasions.<br /><br />Anon@3:25 pm. I relate more to the Ellen than to Taylor Swift; however, a brand's choice of spokesmodel does not influence me to buy, at least not consciously. <br /><br />Duchessehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09986153653120526776noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2872918251244874644.post-64469359538358470922014-09-12T14:25:03.492-04:002014-09-12T14:25:03.492-04:00Yes Ellen Degeneres, it's an insult to older w...Yes Ellen Degeneres, it's an insult to older women, now we become butch as we age. Covergirl would never use a non-feminine younger woman to sell products but all "old broads" look like men anyway with the short on the sides hair and the uniform of comfy pants they all wear. We may as well have a man-woman sell us beauty products. <br /> <br />I actually complained to Covergirl about their stereotyping of older women. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2872918251244874644.post-15388449695879457502014-09-12T12:27:50.291-04:002014-09-12T12:27:50.291-04:00I agree with one femme -- hogwash. If a person se...I agree with one femme -- hogwash. If a person self-identifies a particular way, accept them and let them be. Living and being human brings enough suffering without heaping more upon people out of narrow-minded self interest. I wish we could all just accept each other with open hearts. That said I feel a certain degree of sadness for those who are so imprisoned in their own self-defensive claims.Mardelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04850551308931710502noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2872918251244874644.post-52985551917416238422014-09-11T20:46:55.699-04:002014-09-11T20:46:55.699-04:00lagatta: You've reminded us via both your fri...lagatta: You've reminded us via both your friend and your own experience of the wide range of expression of the phenotype.<br /><br />Laura: Thanks for the links. Neilly's work reminds me of the Australian person (Norrie) who recently won the right to be gender neutral- though they are not adopting that stance as an art form. <br />http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/australiaandthepacific/australia/10738405/Australias-top-court-recognises-gender-neutral-sex-category.html<br /><br />LPC: I'm glad you'd do that, and it is consistent with posts you've written, too.Duchessehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09986153653120526776noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2872918251244874644.post-84891693657449314442014-09-11T17:10:49.706-04:002014-09-11T17:10:49.706-04:00I liked both of your links; the Guardian piece is ...I liked both of your links; the Guardian piece is a great primer. <br /><br />An old and dear friend of mine who is a gay man now says he is "emotionally transgender" but doesn't want to go through any physical transition with the attendant hormone horrors. This always comes as a bit of a shock, especially as G is very "male"; he is a Québec farm boy with big hands and shoulders. <br /><br />I do know a female to male transgender person who has done so, and he is very unwell physically and deeply distressed due to the effects of the high and lifelong hormone doses - I'm glad younger transpeople now are accepting less harmful ways of addressing their sexual and bodily identity issues. <br /><br />Hell, I'm in no way intersex or transgender; rather too female actually, but if I didn't depilate and pluck, I'd have Frida Kahlo's brunette's moustache, and both black and grey stray hairs.lagatta à montréalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02610410709900333230noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2872918251244874644.post-83085352918330061532014-09-11T12:13:06.791-04:002014-09-11T12:13:06.791-04:00I can't for the life of me make intellectual s...I can't for the life of me make intellectual sense of gender studies and the parsing of terms. But I can make emotional sense of human experience, usually, and if trans women want to be called "she" I'll do it. With an open heart.LPChttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18209861350905135093noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2872918251244874644.post-10306185400725777022014-09-11T10:51:07.536-04:002014-09-11T10:51:07.536-04:00materfamilias: My own sense is it's the trauma...materfamilias: My own sense is it's the trauma that gave rise to the position. The New Yorker article mentions events for which confirmed performers or speakers have cancelled appearances as a result of their influence, so though a small group, they have had an effect. Goldberg also describes the reciprocal action of opposing groups turning up at TERF meetings, or demanding TERFs move their meeting to another site- so they have attracted attention even though a small group. (I did not see actual numbers for affiliated members.)Duchessehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09986153653120526776noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2872918251244874644.post-16219852958683308782014-09-11T10:43:48.107-04:002014-09-11T10:43:48.107-04:00Seems worth noting though, to me anyway, that the ...Seems worth noting though, to me anyway, that the radical feminists described in Goldberg's article (which I only just skimmed after reading your post) are such a small, marginalized group as almost to constitute a straw (whoops! wo)man. And perhaps they hold their position so tightly out of their own experience of trauma. . . materfamiliashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16062766947897513369noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2872918251244874644.post-21442104760413903162014-09-11T10:40:30.720-04:002014-09-11T10:40:30.720-04:00Materfamilias got the words right: "vulnerabi...Materfamilias got the words right: "vulnerability and courage." To be female, whether one is born in that form or chooses the long, painful route to transformation, is to be vulnerable, and requires courage. In some parts of the world it requires greater courage than it does for most of us, as Laura points out. The refusal to support and include any woman, however she arrived at that identity, seems indefensible to me.<br /><br />C.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2872918251244874644.post-36920464830023196922014-09-11T09:41:13.456-04:002014-09-11T09:41:13.456-04:00unefemme: "Hogwash"! What a great old-ti...unefemme: "Hogwash"! What a great old-timey word. Look forward to hearing more.<br /><br />Patricia: Thanks, I found it useful too.<br /><br />materfamilias: You last question is one I've often asked myself. Not condescending, just a realization that's someone's child and I hope, loved.<br /><br />LauraH: To me, it is worth the debate when trans women are excluded from all-women events, or an attempt is made to so. But, as a 66 yr old second-wave femninst I sure do see your point- have spent endless hours debating and theorizing, not enough practical "let's try this". Been there!<br /><br />The Western world is not the only place where trans or intersex persons face discrimination, marginalization and violence.<br />Duchessehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09986153653120526776noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2872918251244874644.post-26014747343695947262014-09-11T09:38:12.933-04:002014-09-11T09:38:12.933-04:00Reading my comments, I realize that I haven't ...Reading my comments, I realize that I haven't been clear. I was reacting to the exclusionary tactics you described. Like materfamilias, I prefer kindness and respect as the basis for how we treat others.LauraHhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03402103522466794364noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2872918251244874644.post-24004956679427837502014-09-11T09:32:52.465-04:002014-09-11T09:32:52.465-04:00A firecracker of a topic, that's for sure. Wh...A firecracker of a topic, that's for sure. Whenever I read about the kind of parsing of the female identity that you describe, I can't help but think of the millions just trying to get through the day in circumstances I can't really imagine. This kind of debate feels like a luxury made possible by our Western way of life. Does it really help to spend the time and energy or are we navel gazing again? I'm not explaining this very well, can't seem to find the right words.LauraHhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03402103522466794364noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2872918251244874644.post-92172196055895470922014-09-11T09:30:48.165-04:002014-09-11T09:30:48.165-04:00Hear hear! I've increasingly had young trans w...Hear hear! I've increasingly had young trans women (and men, for that matter) in my classes over the years. Their vulnerability and courage always strikes me, but I also appreciate their smashing through some of our notions of what gender has to be (even as they appear to validate others). I'm up on a fair bit of the theory around the issue, but I think that, more than theory, simply relying on the "best practice" of affording other individuals the dignity we want for ourselves works. Good Old Golden Rule. <br />The whole issue of elective surgery and of a reliance on a potentially dangerous regime of hormones and medications is a separate one, in some ways. It troubles me, particularly when taken on by adolescents (a student last year missed several weeks due to a crisis in regulating meds). That said, compared to emotional/mental anguish, with the attendant risk of suicice. . . . And perhaps as we loosen up the gender cages we have constructed, more individuals might be happy with gender-border-crossing through clothes and behaviour only. Meanwhile, kindness and respect, not judgment. . . What if it were our child?materfamiliashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16062766947897513369noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2872918251244874644.post-68038717889448180152014-09-11T09:27:32.891-04:002014-09-11T09:27:32.891-04:00Thank you for the link to the video, very interest...Thank you for the link to the video, very interesting and useful. Patriciahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05504513116873595049noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2872918251244874644.post-8348385705548994442014-09-11T09:04:11.259-04:002014-09-11T09:04:11.259-04:00So much to delve into here, and I'm on my morn...So much to delve into here, and I'm on my morning rush. But yes, there are a small minority of feminists who believe either/and that a) gender is a social construct, not a physical one or that b) only those born into women's bodies can be "real" women. I think both are hogwash. I'll come back and re-join the discussion later today. Susan Bhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16005855250089328310noreply@blogger.com